Johnson White spent 30 years as Philip Hobbs’ assistant before joining him on the licence, and last season brought the partnership plenty of big days. Kap Vert won the Scottish Grand National at 20/1, Imperial Saint landed the Peter Marsh at Haydock and Sober Glory was beaten just a length-and-a-half in the Supreme Novices’ Hurdle at the Cheltenham Festival.
Speaking exclusively to GG’s Joe Napier, White mapped out a two-mile novice chase campaign for Sober Glory, explained what Kap Vert needs to do to get into the Grand National and revealed why he believes the tide is turning in British jumps racing’s battle with the Irish.
GG: Last season with Philip may not have numerically scaled the heights of the previous season, but because of your big days with Kap Vert in the Scottish National, Imperial Saint in the Peter Marsh, and of course Sober Glory, is it fair to say that it felt like a step forward?
Johnson White: Yeah, very much so. As you rightly say, numerically we were slightly down, but we were definitely up on quality – and not forgetting the Morebattle Hurdle there as well, amongst the big days – and I think that’s very much rolled on to this season. We’ve got a lovely team of horses to run. Yeah, we have had more horses in the past, but we’ve certainly got as good a quality now as we’ve had for a long time.
GG: Sober Glory is at the forefront this season. He’s going novice chasing, and we could see your quiet confidence about his work in your TV interview at Cheltenham at the weekend. Is it a case that you work back from an obvious route to the Arkle for him?
White: That’s very much where we’re aiming, but we’ve got a lot of ground to cover before we get to those dizzy heights. At the same time, his schooling’s been very, very good indeed. He might actually have had a run at Uttoxeter, but we just need a bit more juice in the ground for him, so he’s ready to run as and when the ground allows. There are no firm plans at this stage, but he’ll start off over two miles novice chasing – that’s very much the plan.
GG: You mentioned the juice in the ground. Ben Jones said after Aintree that on decent ground Sober Glory might need further. Is it the case that you’re only ever going to wait for juice in the ground now, or is it possible that a two-and-a-half or three-mile route could be considered if ground conditions dictated it?
White: No, I think we’ve all been in agreement since his bumper days really that he will get further, but at the same time he’s got plenty of speed for two, so we’ll certainly start off over two, and he’ll step up in trip as and when he needs to. There’s no need to divert just yet anyway.
“I think he’d be ideally suited by the trip and the course – he’s got a very, very neat, athletic way of jumping.“
GG: One who is on a very different trajectory, but of a similar age profile, is Kap Vert. Having won the Scottish National as a six-year-old, he would have been a perfectly natural fit for the Grand National, but obviously the race has changed a little bit now. Is it still the case that that would be a long-term aim for him? You had Imperial Saint in this year’s race, so could he be another one to potentially go there too?
White: Very much so. Having won the Scottish Grand National, the Grand National very much came onto the radar. I think he’d be ideally suited by the trip and the course – he’s got a very, very neat, athletic way of jumping. And yes, the Grand National has changed immeasurably, but at the same time it still takes a lot of jumping, you still need a lot of luck, and it’s still got that mystique about it. We ran Imperial Saint last year. He was rated 144 and we just squeaked in, so we do need to go up in the handicap before it becomes a realistic target for Kap Vert.
GG: Following up on that: where is it possible that Kap Vert will go to potentially improve his handicap mark enough?
White: Well, I keep updating the owners on a nearly daily basis at the moment. He’s got an entry in the Coral Gold Cup. He’s got an entry in the Oddschecker Chase at Cheltenham in two weeks’ time, and with the Badger Beer having now moved to Aintree next Friday, he’ll almost certainly have an entry at Aintree as well. If he did go to Aintree, that potentially gives us three weeks between then and Newbury for the Coral Gold Cup, so those are the immediate starting points. He did a very nice piece of work under Sean Houlihan, who’s sitting beside me at the moment! We’re really pleased with where we’re at with him for this time of the year. As you rightly say, he’s only six, and he’s only ever had five runs over fences, so we hope we can build on last season and have a lot of fun with him.
GG: You mentioned the Morebattle Hurdle at the start as another of your big days last year – Captain Hugo, the winner of that, had a very profitable campaign. Could he potentially still be well handicapped for this season, and what are the plans for him?
White: I never like saying a horse is well handicapped, but I think he’s capable of winning off the mark he’s on – you never know who’s listening to these things, and I wouldn’t like the handicapper to think I’ve got pounds in hand! He has come out of Chepstow very well and probably wants all of two miles. He’s got an entry in the Greatwood Hurdle, and I just think that a stiff, fast-run race round there, staying on up the hill, will very much play to his strengths. He’s a horse that travels well, but he will get further in time as well.
GG: Philip has had 19 Cheltenham Festival winners in the past, and obviously you guys came so close with Sober Glory last season. How keen are you to add to that tally and get your first Festival winner on the licence?
White: Well, 19 Cheltenham Festival winners is a fantastic achievement for anyone. Having competitive runners at the Festival is obviously very much something we aspire to, and to have Cheltenham Festival winners is what we all dream about. But equally, I think we’ve got the right ammunition this season and going forward to be having those sorts of aspirations and targets.
GG: The training partnership between yourself and Philip has obviously been paying off. What is the dynamic between the two of you in terms of your training relationship, as there seem to be a lot more of those partnerships these days?
White: Essentially, I was Philip’s assistant for 30 years, and Philip very kindly allowed me to join the licence. I take it as a huge honour to have my name mentioned in the same breath as someone who’s trained over 3,000 winners. Realistically, the dynamics haven’t changed a great deal. I suppose I’m going racing more now, which I’m enjoying, and my daughter and I have set up syndicates within the yard, so we’ve now got ten syndicate horses in the yard, one of which runs today. We’re just trying to bring in the next generation of owners, essentially. Philip’s been training for a long time, and a lot of his owners are a little bit older, so hopefully Molly and I can bring in the next generation, whether that’s in syndicate form or sole ownership. But the team works well, and we’re very much enjoying it and working well together.
“The English trainers have got a much stronger hand of horses that will go to the spring festivals.“
GG: Sober Glory was part of a British one-two-three-four in the Supreme last season. That was one of a number of things, alongside Dan Skelton’s trainers’ championship, which suggests a potential turning of the tide in the Ireland versus Britain battle. With Dan chasing the records that he’s chasing, is that an inspiration for a yard like yours, or are you slightly concerned that it could create a further imbalance of almost Skelton and Mullins and then the rest? I asked Jamie Snowden this the other day and he came back saying that’s just what sport is. What would your take be on that?
White: Well, two points to the question. Firstly, I think the Irish-English tide is turning – I’m not saying it has turned, but I think the English trainers have got a much stronger hand of horses that will go to the spring festivals and the bigger races, and compete on a very competitive level with the Irish. As regards the possible imbalance with the bigger yards in this country, I think all any individual trainer can do is respect the competition. It makes you want to get better and be competitive with them, and have similar numbers and quality of horses.
GG: Lastly, are there any newcomers to the yard over the summer, or between the last couple of seasons, who could potentially fill the Sober Glory mould? And secondly, are there any existing or better-known names who you think have done really well over the summer, have potentially improved, and who we maybe haven’t seen the best of on a racecourse yet?
White: Firstly, we’re always trying to buy new horses, and obviously we’re buying them with a view to them being good horses and winning races, which is the most important thing for the yard and our owners. In relation to horses that have done particularly well over the summer, I think Imperial Saint’s in great form at the moment. He’ll probably run on Saturday week at Aintree, with a longer-term view of the Topham at the Grand National meeting. Kikijo, another one of Dicky Johnson’s actually, will go back over fences this year, all being well. And then we’ve got a lot of nice young horses – some ex-Irish pointers, some that haven’t run, some that have run in a bumper – so all in all we’ve got a very lovely team on paper, and we just can’t wait to get the ground suitable to get them up and running.